Posts by Disillusioned JW

32

Date of Adam's "Creation?

by Slidin Fast in

how do jws resolve these conflicting facts.. 1. no matter how you spin it, bible chronology calculates to circa 4000 bc for adam's creation.

i followed the trail many years ago and that's what it adds up to.. 2. the most cursory investigation of any branch of relevant science puts man's habitation on the earth as hugely earlier than that.

it's now so well-proved that anyone disputing it is guilty of wilful ignorance.

OK, I was wrong about the idea of the Noah flood story having roots in a flooding caused the rise of the Black Sea. I had confused the idea of the Black Sea being associated with the biblical story with the idea of flooding caused by expansion of the Persian Gulf. That flooding was into what was then called Sumeria. What was once the Garden of Eden is now under a portion of the Persian Gulf. It is as I stated in a different topic thread where I said the following. '... there is some evidence for a massive local flood that wiped out lush vegetation and a human population about 9,000 to 11,000 years ago, in (or very near) what later became know as Sumeria. What do you think of the History Channel program ... called "Decoding The Past: Mysteries of the Garden of Eden"? I think it makes very convincing claims.' In the program a scientist using satellite imaging found the channels of all four of the rivers mentioned in Genesis 2:10-14 which Genesis says pinpoints the location of the Garden of Eden! But (if I remember correctly) instead of the rivers issuing out of Eden to become heads, it is where they converged into Eden. Jeffro, you are thus correct in saying the flood story based on a local flood in Mesopotamia, but it was an emense flood.

8

First rule of book club: don't talk about book club

by Judgerussellford in

i've never heard anyone else but ne say this but i've been saying it for years.

if you agree and have also been saying this for years, that is hilariously greater.

watchtower is just a cooperation that hides behind a religious title, that owns real-estate around the world, these buildings wich only have 1 purpose.

Disillusioned JW

I remember that while I was a believing JW I wondered at times why the WTS produced so many different doctrinal books. I wondered why doesn't the WTS simply use the same doctrinal book (with occasional revisions) for many decades instead of replacing it with new book after new book. I wondered why the WTS expects JW to read so much literature? Now I know the real reason. It was about making money - not about helping JW to learn more about the Bible and not about attracting more people to the JW religion. Studying so many WTS books was very tiresome to me. Likewise studying so many issues of the WT magazine was so very tiresome to me.

When the WTS largely stopped making hardcover books and started making paperback books instead, including paperback editions of books formerly published as hardcover books, I was displeased with the change. [I prefer hardcover books to paperback books, not just in regards to WTS books, since hardcover books are much more durable, including in regards to their binding (if their binding is stitched).] I also recognized it meant the WTS was loosing money (or at least getting far less money than they previously were).

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

On second thought I think it is best that I do not obtain an online "diploma mill" degree in theology and that I do not obtain an online "diploma mill" degree as a minister of atheism (and/or of humanism). Furthermore, I think it is best that I do not write a biblical theology book. Writing an atheistic book which in large part criticizes the Bible is enough in regards to writing a book which comments on the Bible.

I am disappointed that so much of what I was taught by the WT Society of Bible doctrines is incorrect.

In contrast to what I wrote earlier in this topic thread, perhaps the passage about Michael the Archangel in the book of Revelation is from a Jewish non-Christian text. Some scholars say that Revelation started out as a Jewish non-Christian apocalyptic book, but that Christian portions were later added to the book making it what is today. Perhaps the book of Revelation shouldn't be considered part of the Christian NT canon.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Jeffro, you are right about what you saying of the Gospel of Matthew saying the presence is after the tribulation (if you also mean that the presence starts when Christ comes in judgement and as King) and that the presence analogous to the unexpected arrival of the 'flood' itself. I discovered that teaching myself (at least that the start of the parousia is when the sign of the son Man begins) in 1995 (or shortly later) when I started reading and very carefully studying Matthew chapters 24-25 independent of WT interpretation of those chapters (except that I was reading the verses in the NWT Bible). That discovery was during the beginning of me realizing I need to think independently of the WT in scriptural matters, though I was still a ministerial servant at the time (though my field service activity had dropped to a very low level around 1995). In 2000 or 2001 I stopped almost all attendance of JW meetings at the Kingdom Hall.

You made a good point in saying that the word parousia (presence) in not used in the gospels attributed to Mark, Luke, and John.

I noticed that the tribulation mentioned in Matthew chapter 24 (which is described as happening in Judea) is very different from the tribulation of Revelation and of the bowl's of wrath mentioned in Revelation. It is very difficult to correlate Revelation with Matthew chapter 24. Maybe that is part of the evidence that the oldest parts of the book of Revelation were written by a non-Christian Jew. Maybe it is also evidence that the book of Revelation should be rejected as part of the Christian NT Bible.

There is also little in Matthew 25:31-46 which correlates with anything in the book of Revelation.

19

Meeting announcement for emergency contact info of non-JW friends & relatives (?)

by LongHairGal in

jw
friends

i just saw this post on reddit and can hardly believe it.. if i remember correctly years back they told you not to have anything to do with non-jw friends or relatives.

they discouraged you from bothering with non-jw family and to avoid them on holidays!!

i needlessly missed out on some delicious holiday meals with people who genuinely cared about me.

Disillusioned JW

LongHairGal what you read on reddit seems to be true based upon what https://avoidjw.org/announcements/ar-2022/ says was included in the May 2022 announcements, but it might have something to do with "Disaster Preparedness". There it says "Emergency Contact Information" in regards to "For the Secretary". My attempt at home to download the associated pdf failed.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Besides the great tribulation which befell the Jews of Jerusalem in 70 CE what about the even greater tribulation which befell the Jews of Judea, even of Jerusalem, in circa 135 CE (or 136 CE) when the Romans defeated Bar Kokhba (Simon bar Kokba) and his revolt? Christians very rarely mention that revolt and the ensuing punishment to the Jews of Judea. I think it is probably because it conflicts with their teaching that the greatest tribulation to befall Jerusalem and Jews was in 70 CE. Prior to the revolt the Roman emperor brought about the "construction of a new city, Aelia Capitolina, over the ruins of Jerusalem and the erection of a temple to Jupiter on the Temple mount.[9]" (see link to article below). During the revolt Bar Kokhba had recaptured Jerusalem and created an independent Jewish state over most of Judea, and Jewish coins were minted in Jerusalem! Possibly the Jewish temple (what remained of it) was even rededicated to Yahweh (the Jewish coins had a depiction of the Jewish temple). The Bar Kokba revolt/war lasted from circa 132 CE to 136 CE (or to 135 CE?). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt says the following.

"Despite arrival of significant Roman reinforcements from Syria, Egypt, and Arabia, initial rebel victories over the Romans established an independent state over most parts of Judea Province for over three years, as Simon bar Kokhba took the title of Nasi ("head of state"). As well as leading the revolt, he was regarded by many Jews as the Messiah, who would restore their national independence.[12] ... The Bar Kokhba revolt resulted in the extensive depopulation of Judean communities, more so than during the First Jewish–Roman War of 70 CE.[14] ... The Jewish communities of Judea were devastated to an extent which some scholars describe as a genocide. ... After the suppression of the revolt, Hadrian's proclamations sought to root out Jewish nationalism in Judea,[9] which he saw as the cause of the repeated rebellions. He prohibited Torah law and the Hebrew calendar, and executed Judaic scholars. The sacred scrolls of Judaism were ceremonially burned at the large Temple complex for Jupiter which he built on the Temple Mount. At this Temple, he installed two statues, one of Jupiter, another of himself. In an attempt to erase any memory of Judea or Ancient Israel, he wiped the name off the map and replaced it with Syria Palaestina.[22][23][24] By destroying the association of Jews with Judea and forbidding the practice of the Jewish faith, Hadrian aimed to root out a nation that had inflicted heavy casualties on the Roman Empire. Similarly, under the argument to ensure the prosperity of the newly founded Roman colonia of Aelia Capitolina, Jews were forbidden to enter, except on the day of Tisha B'Av.[76]"

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

I might have been incorrect in thinking that the mention of the word "signs" in Revelation 1:1 (such as in the 1984 NWT) means that Revelation is presented in symbols. The idea that the word "signs" in Revelation 1:1 means symbols is a meaning which the WT taught and which I thus thought was correct, but the KJV, RV, ARV, and ASV say "signified" instead of "signs" (or "presented [it] in signs"), and some other Bibles say "made it known" instead of "signs". Furthermore, the word "signs" as used in the Bible sometimes means something literal, such as claims of literal miracles having been performed by Jesus as indication that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ, the Son of God the Father, and was sent and empowered by God the Father. However, it is obvious to me that most of Revelation is presented symbolically (or at least figuratively) instead of literally.

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

A moment ago the following occurred to me. I consider it an insight and 'inspiration' in a naturalistic sense, but do some of you readers consider it inspiration in a supernatural sense from God the Father and/or from Jesus Christ the Son of God? Do some of you think such even though I am now an atheistic naturalist, though I seriously and sincerely partook of the memorial emblems for two years privately in my home?

Since Revelation says it is presented in signs (and thus presents matters symbolically) perhaps when it mentions Michael the Archangel it is neither saying that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel nor speaking literally of Michael the Archangel. Perhaps instead its mention of Michael the Archangel (like it mention of the lamb who/which was slaughtered) is a symbolic reference to Jesus Christ. Just as Jesus Christ (if he existed) was not a literally a slaughtered lamb, perhaps according to Revelation he was not literally Michael the Archangel but rather is symbolically represented in Revelation as Michael the Archangel. In contrast to that, perhaps in other books of the Bible where Michael the Archangel is mentioned, the meaning is literally of Michael the Archangel.

If the above is the case, then the biblical references to Michael the Archangel are reconciled with each other, and the confusion of whether or not Jesus is Michael is also cleared away! I think that number of cases I understand the Bible better than the writers of the WT (including the governing body of the JW religion). What do you readers think about that?

Sea Breeze, Vanderhaven7, and Fisherman what do you think of the above?

Furthermore, since I spent so much time studying the Bible and theology should I obtain an online "diploma mill" degree in theology, as well as an online "diploma mill" degree as a minister of atheism (and/or of humanism), and write a biblical theology book which besides saying what I think the Bible teaches on certain subjects, also presents an atheistic point of view of the Bible? Do you think I am scholarly enough to write well such a book and make a significant amount of money from such?

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze I hope that especially you read this post, since in it I acknowledge that I have now adopted some of the views you stressed to me in this topic thread.

Today, with the aid a KJV concordance, I have looked up some verses in which the word "spirit" is used in the KJV Bible in regards to what is in humans. While in some of those verses the word "spirit" can be thought of as having the modern meaning of merely mind, emotion, intellect, or life energy, without any supernatural nature definitely being intended, in other cases it does seem to definitely also mean something supernatural. It is thus looking that Sea Breeze is right in saying that in the Bible the words translated as "spirit", when used in regards to 'something' inside humans, has the meaning of something which is supernatural and thus immortal, and it also has conscious attributes.

However, in regards to the Hebrew word translated as "soul" it is unclear (to me at least) if the meaning is that of something supernatural. In most instances the word "soul" in the OT does not convey anything supernatural to me. Genesis chapter one (such as worded in the NWT at least) says that certain nonhuman animals were created as souls, not that souls were imparted into them. Likewise as worded in the KJV (RV, ARV, ASV, and 1984 NWT), Adam upon God breathing into him became "a living soul", instead of having a soul put into him. However, since the Hebrew word translated as "breath", is also translated as "wind" and as "spirit", that verse about God breathing into Adam could also be saying that God put spirit (not a spirit being) into Adam. Similarly, in the NT in one verse Jesus is said to breathe holy spirit into his disciples.

In the NT the meaning of the word "soul" in most instances is clearly used in the sense of person (or human life), but there are a few instances in the NT which seem to possibly contradict that meaning. But maybe in those few instances it is referring to future prospects of the soul being granted eternal life or being denying such eternal life. If the latter is case then it would agree with the WT's teaching in regards to those verses.

But in the NT some verses seem to be saying that the human "soul" is supernatural and immortal. An example of that is in Revelation about holy ones who were executed by 'the beast', but it should be remembered that the first paragraph of Revelation says that Revelation is presented in signs (and hence symbolically), thus the conscious dead holy souls described as under the altar might not be meant to be interpreted literally.

Perhaps in some instances the Greek word translated as soul in a few NT verses (where on the surface a supernaturally meaning seems to be indicated) actually has the meaning of spirit instead of the Hebrew meaning of soul. In other cases, the vast majority of cases, in the NT the Greek word translated as soul seems to have the Hebrew meaning of a mortal soul which is the entire human (or nonhuman animal), which God in future might give eternal life, as well as cases in which claim God in the future (speaking from the point of view of the future as if it already happened) has made some human souls eternal.

Considering the above, it seems to me that regarding the Hebrew and Greek words which are translated as "soul" in English translations of the Bible, the WT's definition of the biblical "soul" is the actual meaning which the Bible teaches - except perhaps in regards to a few NT verses. However, it also seems that the WT's definition of the Bible's meaning of the the biblical "spirit" of humans is incorrect (at least partially incorrect).

32

Date of Adam's "Creation?

by Slidin Fast in

how do jws resolve these conflicting facts.. 1. no matter how you spin it, bible chronology calculates to circa 4000 bc for adam's creation.

i followed the trail many years ago and that's what it adds up to.. 2. the most cursory investigation of any branch of relevant science puts man's habitation on the earth as hugely earlier than that.

it's now so well-proved that anyone disputing it is guilty of wilful ignorance.

Disillusioned JW

Wouldn't what you said make the flood stories inconsistent with (not compatible with) the facts pertaining to evolution, including the ones you mentioned (including the subsequent rapid pace of evolution which would be required if a global flood really happened at the supposed timing of the event)? I do not see us as being in being in disagreement with that, pertaining to a global flood.

But wouldn't such problems stated by you (and also believed by me) only pertain to a global flood, and not to a local flood caused by a rise of the sea level of the Black Sea prior to 4500 BCE? Some Christians (including some who are convinced of macroevolution) teach that the flood was only local, not global, and thus the only animals brought into the Ark were local animals. There is strong evidence that a local flood caused by a rise of the Black Sea was the basis for the flood story which from which the flood stories of Genesis derived from. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis . The flood stories of Genesis, which culturally evolved from some earlier flood stories, very possibly have some elements of fact within them. Some scientists published content saying there is scientific evidence for such a local flood which 'inspired' the stories in Genesis.

See the following articles (pertaining to a local flood, not a global flood):

- https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/09/13/artifacts-found-in-the-black-sea-may-be-evidence-of-biblical-flood/814a339e-5e62-4ddd-b4c3-c14d9a015360/

- https://www.theguardian.com/science/2000/sep/14/internationalnews.archaeology [The content of this article is related to that of the above article. The two article were published on the same day. This article mentions that the marine scientist named Robert Ballard who says he found evidence of a local flood caused by the Black Sea is also "the scientist who discovered the wrecked Titanic". In the article he says he not making the claim "that this is the biblical flood", saying he doesn't know whether or not it is. But this article was published in 2000. In a later article he says it is evidence that Noah's flood happened; see the ABC News article below.]

- https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533 [This article is from December 05, 2012. The first paragraph of that article says the following. "The story of Noah's Ark and the Great Flood is one of the most famous from the Bible, and now an acclaimed underwater archaeologist thinks he has found proof that the biblical flood was actually based on real events."